The discussion at church on Sunday was about judgment. God being a judge, and there being a judgment day. There was plenty of talk justifying why there has to be a judgment day, why God has to and will judge the wicked, how without a day of judgment, there is no hope, etc. etc.
I just have a few thoughts… and I promise I’ll keep this short.
Judge Dredd
Judgment is a strange thing, although most people probably do not think so or even second guess “justice” and “judgment” at all. In fact, most people live their entire lives engulfed in a “legal system” because that is all they know. Growing up in America, we are very familiar with courts, judges, judgments and verdicts. You are either guilty or you are innocent. There is right and there is wrong, and you either broke the law or you did not. There is very little middle ground, good and evil are very black and white – and you have evildoers and good people. Lines are drawn, stereotypes and archetypes are created, and we live in that world view. We try and get rid of the bad people… the people who might harm us or others, the dangerous, the broken, the misunderstood.
Occasionally there is discussion about why laws are broken, why people make bad decisions or why they are bad people and what might have effected/caused this. Usually though, this is only the case for mentally unstable people or children/teenagers who we assume do not have the capacity to make sound judgments, therefor it is their parents fault for their actions or they are a product of their surroundings (poverty, ignorance/non-educated, abuse, etc). But perhaps, I would argue, we do not do this enough… make excuses that is. Maybe we are all a little mentally unstable – depends on who you ask, I suppose.
I would argue that for any and all actions, good or bad, committed by humans, there is a reason why they decided (if they even had the ability to decide, which is a whole nother post altogether) to do that action, and if we had infinite knowledge, as God does, we could pinpoint exactly the reason why someone did something, acted in such and such a way, or gave in to their emotions/passions/temptations, and there would be justification – wouldn’t there?
Think of it this way…I would argue that what some people think is good, could actually be bad. What appears moral to a majority, may actually be destructive/evil/bad in God’s perfectly wise/all knowing eyes… how can we know?
The Box Model
I was once taught that we live in a box, and all we know is this box. It is our world view. Every experience we have had in our life is a part of this box, or inside of this box, and we understand the world around us through this lens, or through these experiences, or inside of this box. This is my box: I am a white, male who has lived in California and Oregon, who has been to a few countries but not all, who only speaks one language, who has read a few books, who has listened to a very small percentage of all the music that has ever existed, who is heterosexual, married, and has two girls, who has allergies but has never needed glasses… you see where I am going? If you step back far enough, I have a very limited understanding of the world and all that is in it – in other words, I have no idea what is is like to be a teenage girl in china, living in poverty in the country-side, who only has a mother because her father died at an early age. I can barely even imagine what that would be like, and when I try to imagine it – I have to admit even in my imagination I am piecing together things I know – so my imagination falls short of what it is actually like to live in china, speak chinese, be a female, etc. On the other hand, I have a limited understanding of what it is like to be my wife, someone who I share a lot of similarities with, but who – if you looked at our lives thus far, have gone through very different experiences and are learning that we look at the same things very differently for that very reason.
I say all this to raise the question…. how can I judge what I don’t understand? How can I understand what I have not experienced in some way? How can I really know who is guilty, and why?
Will there be a judgment day?
I fully believe in a judgment day, that we will all stand before God, and he will be judge. But in the presence of an all-knowing God, who sees all and understands all then God will judge us perfectly, and what I believe, is that in perfect judgment, there is perfect justification. Perhaps justification is the wrong word. I like, perfect understanding, more. Because when you understand WHY someone did something, or what may have caused them to act in such a way, there is more room for forgiveness. If you stand back far enough, you will see that we are sheep, we are tiny little beings who live so large and think we know so much, but what we don’t understand is how much we don’t understand, and we start to think we can blame people for their actions – when in reality, we are ALL sinners, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we are ALL in the same boat, we all don’t understand what we do or why we do it (as Jesus so graciously pointed out on the cross – “forgive them, for the know not what they do”) and one day we will see that God has saved us all… God is saving us all… God is understanding our shortcomings, our evilness, our selfishness, our greed and our lust, our addictions and inabilities… God can be blamed for all those things, I mean, he made us, right? I mean, that is the story of Jesus, is it not? He took upon himself, the sins of us all…he took the blame. He’s big enough for that, he get’s it, he sees the big picture, the grand scheme. The whole free will thing… in order to be free, we had to be able to choose… but choice is a bit of an illusion, because although in each decision we can decide whether to go left or go right or not go anywhere at all… our decision is influenced in invisible, hidden, unknowable ways we will never see or comprehend, but in which God fully sees the strings attached to each decision and is able to judge based on the merit of those strings, based on our experiences and the cards that have been dealt to us.
So a few words might be rolling around in your mouth right now… let me tackle two things here: Predestination and Relativism.
PREDESTINATION
I don’t think this means things are predestined, or we don’t have any free will or choice. Hmm… no. There is a difference between planned and calculated. In other words, did God intend when he created the world for one day there to be a man named Hitler who would kill millions of God’s chosen people? No way. But in God’s chaotic / perfect yet flawed creation, there is the formula for things like that to happen… it can be calculated that it would happen, and so… I blame God. But I think God blames God too… hence, the story of Jesus, paying the price for all this sin stuff… taking it upon himself, and setting us free from the guilt and the judgment while at the same time showing us a better way to live then just in the perpetual cycle of sin, and all the while, he is forgiving, healing, restoring, renewing, saying “I understand. My yoke (my way, my teachings) are easy. Come and rest. It’s ok. We’re all fucked up.”
RELATIVISM
Is this all relativism? Sure… it’s all relative – if we witness a father hitting his child, is that wrong? evil? I think it is… no matter what the child has done, a father/parent should NEVER hit their child. But to some other people, they do not see it that way. They see this as a loving way to discipline their child, to show disapproval and consequence. In fact, in their “heart” (wherever that is) they may have perfectly justifiable love pushing them to do so… so who is right? Me or them? I think in the sense of “right” and “wrong” – I am right. In light of what I know, God is leading us to the “Kingdom of God” – a place of peace and forgiveness, where love trumps all forms of violence – so not hitting your child is how God wants us to live, in my opinion. But I still think that God would not judge this person any different then he would judge me – because the father that hits their child out of love, well that’s all he knows. in his box world, love = tough love. He would have a hard time seeing it any other way, if that’s what he learned from his father, and his friends, and his neighbors, and his countrymen. And so, even if the father did it out of laziness, bitterness, frustration and anger… what if he knows no way out, no alternative? Why if he’s a slave to his emotions, his anger – and he knows he’s wrong but he hits his child anyway? What if he IS guilty?
What would be truly evil, is a God that knows EVERYTHING, sees EVERYTHING – every detail, every event, every word, every story – and yet judges a person anyway knowing that it’s not their fault, but based on events and “facts”, labels them guilty. Did the guy who killed his wife choose to pull the trigger? In most cases yes, and everything I am saying here does not take away from the fact that this IS evil, and wrong, and awful and terrible and all that… but, in the sense of judgment, heaven and hell and all that, I think you have to step back… keep stepping back… further… and look at how pathetic we all are? We are all out of control… we are all one car accident away from losing control… we are so fragile… we are so broken.
I could be wrong…
I know that. I probably am. But this is where I am at and the conclusions I have come to. It could be heresy… probably is. Sorry.
Convince me otherwise. Do you have a different version of the story? I’d love to hear it. This is not a castle I have built and will defend it to the death… I am looking at fractals (again, look it up ^_^) and trying to understand what I see…how it all could be. I’m trying to paint a picture but I am not much of an artist, so add your strokes… fill in the gaps… help me see what I am missing. Seriously. If you disagree… I’d love to know why. If you’ve read this far, you obviously care about what I just said… so say something. Even if it’s just, “Jim, you’re wrong.” fine. I’d love to not live in a silent room with me shouting at the walls waiting for a response… help me out and fill this void.
Apology
Ok… in no way was that short, I apologize. Thank you for reading.
Jim. This is exactly where I have been for the last year and a half to two years. This can be called relativism, but it is more like Christian Universalism. Jesus is the redeemer of all… period. There is a study about Christian Universalism on the parable of the sheep and the goats that I love. Read Gabriel Fackre.
I love your mind Jim. Thank you for writing this. Beautiful
-Noah Hershman
Also Post-Mortem Conversion.
the idea of Christian universalism is convenient, but it’s pretty hard to deal with so many verses (and sayings of Jesus) that talk about people being excluded. unfortunately they’re usually just ignored because of the commitment to universalism. Nor, the fact that for God to force salvation onto people who do not want it would be coercive at best. You wanna talk about determinism!
I totally believe God understands. Perfectly. And then he judges perfectly.
But Jim, you say he understands and then what???
A. He let’s everyone off the hook?
Not only does that make a mockery of all the suffering we cause each other-as though it doesn’t matter. But it mocks human responsibility. How deterministic is it to say that we are totally bound by our context, our upbringing, etc. If I were to look at my upbringing (single mom, living in a trailer, poor, etc), then I should be cooking meth and in and out of jail. But thankfully (due to the grace of God), that is not the deterministic world we live in. If I had to choose between John Piper’s determinism and this naturalistic determinism, I would choose Piper’s every time. (Thankfully we do not have to make a choice between these two extremes).
B. Or, does God step in a provide a way out for those willing to recognize their brokenness, evil, etc.?
Which would you say fits the biblical picture better?
Seems like it would be the latter.
“Also Post-Mortem Conversion.”
If you choose AGAINST God all your life, what would make a person choose FOR God after death? Nothing. I think C.S. Lewis does us well in this regard. (as far as his “hell being locked from the inside idea”)
Thank you Noah and Dustin for your thoughts… I appreciate the dialogue, and I will spend some time reflecting on what has been said… tonight I’m too tired ^_^ but I will continue the conversation.
Dustin,
Judging (hehe) from the fact that you posted a short response, and then a longer response twenty minutes later, followed by a third response – and posted your response on facebook as well… I’d say you’re pretty fired up about all this, yeah?
So let me try and respond… although it may take me a few tries, a few days, and this conversation may linger on…
First of all, right off the bat you say “Christian universalism is convenient”. How so? Do you really think it’s “convenient” to stand on this side of the line? Are you saying I am being lazy if I say, “Yes, I do believe God will save EVERYONE.”? Because this post was not borne out of laziness, or lack of thinking about judgment, salvation, redemption, atonement, etc. This post is a result of years and years of “fear and trembling”, of questioning and praying, seeking, listening, studying… and waiting. I’m not saying I have it all figured out and i’m writing the end-all book on atonement – I’m just saying, there is nothing convenient about universalism or where I am at in my faith right now… there is a lot of friction, argumentation, anger, misunderstanding… sometimes I even feel like people I love, who I think love me, lose faith in me when I bring these things up – and it’s a very, very cold feeling.
You also say it’s pretty hard to argue with so many verses that exclude people. Yes. It is. I agree with that. But I think the exact opposite is also true (if I may say so without throwing any direct examples or quotations out there)… that there are plenty of verses (well, a handful at least) that talk about God’s universal love for ALL men, that he will save ALL men (read ALL people). It’s also possible that people who are so set on exclusion, pass right over the references to God’s grace for everyone. The bible, it seems to me, is full of exclusion and grace – just as it is full of God killing, and God saving, God’s wrath and his love – sometimes it feels like the God of the bible is a bit bipolar… and I do not say that flippantly – I think there is a reason for that.
In response to your two choices… A) that God understands and then he let’s everyone of the hook, or B) God understands and then provides a way out for those who will admit they are evil… (right?)… I would say A. A very wise jr. college catholic philosophy professor I had (who may just be the smartest teacher I ever had – just because she was at a jc doesn’t mean she wasn’t brilliant) asked me once… “Is it what Jesus did on the cross that saves us? Or is it what we do/say that saves us?” I have to believe that Jesus/God saves me – not me saving myself. And from what I read, you are saying God gives me the opportunity to save myself – but it is in my hands whether or not I decide to accept God’s grace… to that I point back to my blog post… about the box model.
Which also brings me to Post-Mortem Conversion… you say some people spend their whole lives rebelling against God, living in evil – why would they, after they have died, change their mind? I would argue determinism – I guess – I don’t fully understand what you mean by that term, and I never went to Seminary or studied it so… I’m taking a chance at saying I get what you’re saying… but if you mean by determinism that our actions are outside of our control, I would say no way. I think I agree with you there… I don’t necessarily see how you got the cooking meth and being in and out of jail from living in a trailer with a single mom and being poor? That seems like a stereotype to me… I would argue that the majority of trailer/poor/single mom kids DONT end up on meth and in and out of jail… but it’s actually the other way around more often – the rich/bored kids who great families who have everything and waste it all… but that’s neither here nor there… point being, we are in control of the outcomes of our lives – to a certain extent. There are a million factors that play into who you are, why you are who you are, and how you are who you are. Maybe it was a single interaction with a single person in your life that convinced you NOT to do meth or steal or whatever, but maybe it was a bunch of stuff. What I was saying was… there are reasons you are who you are today, that has to be evident. You have a kid now… how helpless and hopeless are they without you and Kelli? They can not pull themselves up from their bootstraps and be ok in life – they are dependent on you. And every interaction, every stimulous that comes their way shapes them in some small way… and will for the rest of their lives… that it’s impossible to say, when you look at someone with many years who is bitter, broken, and let’s just say “evil” – it’s impossible to say WHY they are that way. What I was saying was that God, being infinitely wise and infinitely understanding… knows exactly why, and forgives, because he understands why. It doesn’t matter what the person thinks (because the person is a product of their life… like I said, we all live in our own little boxes, and we can’t see outside of them – but God can) they may not want forgiveness, but that doesn’t stop God from forgiving them, right?
I do believe Jesus died on the cross for everyone. That his blood washes us all clean, whether we know it, want it, or think we need it… God is there with open arms, always accepting and loving. For deep down, we are all children – we are all children, and we all need a father who will love us NO MATTER WHAT – like the father of the prodigal son. Grace is a messy, and yes, Grace seems to make a mockery of suffering… What we feel: THOSE PEOPLE DESERVE TO PAY FOR WHAT THEY DID; What God feels: I will take the blame, I will take the punishment, they are free to go; The Response: NO! Then why do good at all? Why help the poor? Why not just shoot and kill everyone? Why don’t i just take that path if there is no consequence? My Response: Because you know that’s not what Jesus did. And Jesus says he is the way, the truth, the life. he came to give life and to the fullest… why wouldn’t we want THAT life, instead of the guilt, shame, frustration, anger, bitterness, greed, fear that comes with being evil… EVEN IF, we will be let off the hook – it is no way to live, and God saw that what he made COULD BE VERY GOOD, so he sent his son (himself) to not only be an example (a light) of what we could be, but also to take the punishment on himself and clear the debt of our wickedness.
Ok, it’s 10:45 and I took nyquil 30 minutes ago, so I’m fading fast… I’ll read back over this tomorrow and respond again.
Again, thanks for the responses… it’s helping me think through this. And Dustin, I’m not against what you’re saying even though I am rebutting. I’m just trying to open every door, “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.” Matt 7:7
You’re my pastor bro… and I need you.
And Noah… I love you son. I know the turmoil you have probably felt the last few years, with APU and YMIN and all that… and with me being gone. But I know you are strong and wise beyond your years… Can’t wait to catch up!
Jim, really appreciate you wrestling with these ideas. I believe we all need to wrestle with our concept of God, who we are as Christians, who we are as the body of Christ, as the church, etc. I think another revolution is possible through this exercise. Now, I don’t fully agree with you but I think in the end, as far as what it means to you and me in terms of how we respond to people…I think we’ll be closer rather than farther apart.
I’m sure you’ve already looked up scriptures and so you can reference an equal amount of verses that have guided you to where you’re at in your faith. I’ll quote a few verses anyways. Matthew 7:13-14: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Or Romans 1:30 – “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
In the long run, whether all will enter into heaven or only those who profess Jesus as Lord or whatever, it doesn’t change how we are to respond/how we are to love people. I believe there will be a judgment day. I also believe that I can be very judgmental of people based on this belief. I think it’s very easy to put a label on someone and call them wretched and evil. This then causes us to have an attitude towards them as unsalvageable. I think this is the attitude many in the church have towards certain groups that you listed – gays, homeless, etc. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, meaning we are all wretched horrible people. I’m called to love that wretched person because God loves me, a wretch. In loving that person, perhaps they get a glimpse of God and come to seek him. I don’t believe in capital punishment because I don’t believe that I am the one who should decide whether or not a person can be redeemed. Maybe that murderer will accept Christ on his death bed. I’m taking the opportunity to accept Christ away from him if the death penalty is in place. Anyways, we just need to love. They will know us by our love.
Jim, I’m curious where the Holy Spirit is in your place of faith. Acts 1:8 says that we will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon us. When does this happen? Also, what about our call to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth?
Love you man,
Johnny
Riled? No, but I do love passionate theological discussion.
“that there are plenty of verses (well, a handful at least) that talk about God’s universal love for ALL men, that he will save ALL men (read ALL people).”
Let’s save some words and cut to the main tension here: Christian universalism. Is everyone saved?
You mention that there are a handful of verses that say that, I would love to see just one!
Does God DESIRE all people to be saved? Sure, 1 Timothy 2 tells us that. God loves ALL people and desires ALL people to be saved. No doubt. But does desire equal outcome?
Is Christ’s death on the cross ENOUGH for EVERY person? Sure, 1 John 2 tells us that it is an atonement that is enough for the whole world! It’s totally sufficient to cover every sin, but does it “effectively” do that? No, the burden of scripture lies that there are those that will not be saved. Why? Because they reject the offer of God’s love and salvation. You can’t get away from it (as much as George Macdonald has tried through various creative and unconvincing hermeneutical exercises).
And again, what kind of God is it that FORCES his love on people who don’t desire it? I think we could call that at least coercive, if not violent to the will. God is a respecter of choice, He does not force people to accept His love, either here or on the other side of the grave. And believe it or not, there are people that DO NOT want it. Read Romans 1-2.
Christ’s death certainly has a universal intent or purpose. Just as John 1:29, John 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 4:10, 2 Cor. 5:14-15 says. But does that mean it’s effective for All people?
And we learn from the rest of scripture, that no, it is not.
What do you do with Matt. 18:8?
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
What about John 5:29?
…and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
What about 1 Thess. 1:8-9?
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
What about Rev. 14:11?
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Matt. 25:41; Lk. 16:19-31;
What do you do with those passages? Was Jesus joking? Was he simply being dramatic? Or trying to scare people into believing?
There are literally dozens of verses that speak to the fact that some will (by their own choice in my opinion) be excluded from life with God.
The assumption of universal atonement ignores the fact that there are two things going on here:
an objective factor (Christ’s provision of salvation) and the subjective factor (our acceptance of that salvation, or our trust in Christ which is what the whole book of John is calling us to).
Let me be frank Jim, I honestly believe that to believe in Christian Universalism requires two things:
1. To do theology with a closed Bible. (And honestly I have not heard you attempt to make a biblical argument, most of it is just “Here’s what I think or feel”, which is kind of interesting, but not compelling when trying to make some sort of case for something.
and/or
2. A (pre)commitment (for what could be a variety of reasons) to the idea that all people be saved (regardless of the force or coercion to make that possible). And when resolved to this, the commitment becomes more important that what scripture actually says which results in all kinds of hermeneutical justifications.
I think (which I could be wrong) the tension for you actually lies in the fact that you KNOW what Scripture says, but you don’t want to believe it.
reading back over this, i hope I’m not being too direct. I’ve been known to post something or say something and not realize how direct or even harsh it sounds. That’s certainly not my intent. My only intent is to challenge you with wrestling with the scriptures, even the ones that are difficult to hear.
I truly enjoy our friendship Jim, and am SO glad the Krills are a part of Evergreen and are our neighbors. I think you’re amazing people and can’t imagine a Krill-less community.
So please forgive me if I am too direct. I really enjoy processing these things in community together and I respect your opinion and appreciate the freedom to express mine with you. Hopefully you feel the same way.
I am not sure I believe in a moment of judgment on earth, other than the daily challenges we face as a person of faith. I think you have your chance to be in the light or the dark with just about every word that comes out of your mouth and every interaction you have with another person.
I will say that in my head, my vision of meeting God and Jesus include their questioning some of my previous behavior, knowing full well I am forgiven. And hopefully explaining a few of the heartbreaks I’ve had too.
I don’t know that this is where your conversation was headed, but I really appreciate you writing about this.
Johnny,
Thanks so much for joining the conversation! I love your perspective, and wish we had had more of these deep theological discussions back when I was around.
I will expand on my line of thought in a future comment, but for now I will answer your questions at the end of your comment about Acts 1:8.
I believe the Holy Spirit is God’s active voice on earth. I also believe that God’s Spirit has been active long before Jesus ascended to Heaven… (Genesis 1:2, Numbers 27:18, Nehemiah 9:30, and 1 Peter 1:11)… and it’s even possible that God’s Spirit influenced and worked outside of God’s chosen people (Numbers 24:2 – but you’ll need to read starting in Numbers 22 to get an idea of what’s going on) and therefor continues to fall on non-believers, or those who simply do not fully understand who Jesus is.
So when does the spirit come upon us? Hmm… perhaps when God is ready to use us for his Glory… perhaps when we are ready to listen to God’s quite voice? What do you think?
Miss you John… thanks, again, for the thoughts.
Dustin,
Thank you for your detailed response. Seriously, you are a man who knows his Bible – and has devoted his life to knowing it… and I respect that and trust your motives in these discussions… not to squash me, but to seek and find (or perhaps seeking is finding), to sharpen as iron sharpens iron.
I love you and I need you to know that you can say these things, and say them “riled” up, and I am ok with that. I wouldn’t have it any other way, man! Of course, it’s hard to get into the “detailed” frame of mind when it’s 10:30pm and I’m tired out of my wits, but like I said in earlier posts, I don’t want this discussion to die… and if I don’t respond with some thought out responses, not only do I not give merit and respect to all the work you put into your responses, but I extinguish this fire that is burning bright (I end the discussion).
If there is anything I want you to know about me, it’s that I can take it. There is no Out of Bounds with me… there is nothing I can not take or hear, no matter how “direct”, as you put it, it may be. Yes, I am human – and things said may rile me up and piss me off or whatever, but I would NEVER, EVER give up on our friendship based on discussions like this… and that’s a promise.
NOW… in response to your elegant response (and please understand, I really mean that… I’m not pulling a Devin (being sarcastic))… may I attempt to answer a few of your questions/remarks and point to a few verses I think influence my thinking.
Let me begin by saying this… I HATE theological discussions. I do… I hate them. I think they are a waste of time… that’s how I feel at least. It totally bugs me when people start dropping verses and backing up their claims and saying things like “You mention that there a handful of verses that say that, I would love to see just one!” ^_^ – and i’m saying this half joking, because mainly it’s because I want to be that detailed in my responses but I do not have the 1. time 2. energy 3. wisdom 4. academic prowess 5. or biblical intelligence to do so…BUT, with all that said… I KNOW theological discussions are valuable. I know that in the trenches of these mental mind Olympics, and bible verse hunting, there is further comprehending and a pushing of the intellect that – hopefully – results in a deeper understand of God, the world, people, and ourselves. So… game on…
Ok, I’m not ignoring those verses. I know they are there… and I disagree in your conclusion that “the tension for you actually lies in the fact that you KNOW what Scripture says, but you don’t want to believe it”. It’s not that I don’t WANT to believe it… it’s that I’m not sure how you can, when in my opinion, there are conflicting statements made through out the new testament about judgment/salvation/who will be saved, etc. It’s not that I don’t want to believe the verses you threw out – it’s that I don’t know what to do with them in light of other verses. Now… I really wish I had the time to write a theological exposition on which verses counter the verses you mentioned, but I just don’t have the time at this point in my life to do that… so, I apologize. But I will throw a few verses out which could be used to argue for universalism.
I Corinthians 15:22
Colossians 1:20
Romans 5:18
Romans 11:32
I found a paper on Universalism online that I read through and thought it was pretty close to what I believe (although not fully)… so if you have time, go here: Universalism and the Bible.
That paper references these verses and explains them in a way I would pretty much agree with. (sorry, like I said, I just don’t have the time to write this stuff on my own and hash out what is in my head).
But before I go on… I want to just say this… all of this scripture referencing kind of reminds me of another topic I will blog on soon: validity of the bible and biblical criticism. One of the things that has shaken, but not broken, my faith the most from going to a liberal Christian school – were a few of my professors who knew a lot about biblical criticism.
In one class, we read “The Meaning of Jesus” by Marcus Borg & N.T. Wright. There’s some crazy shit in that book… the synoptic gospels, theories on the Gospel of John and all that red text (Jesus’ words), whether or not certain events in the bible even happened (the virgin birth, Jesus’ baptism, the scene in the garden before jesus is arrested, etc), and one of the craziest ones of all – whether or not Jesus knew he was God or if certain statements of the new testament gospels in which jesus predicts his death and talks about things as if he were God were written from a future perspective of the Christian community (which makes them true still, but improbable of happening)…. anyway, read the book if you want to know more.
In another class, Ancient Near Eastern History… we studied the old testament in light of non-biblical historical records and talked about how most of the old testament accounts of the armies of Israel may have been “fudged” a little to enhance national pride, if you will, and how in fact Israel may not have been as big or powerful as it appears in the book of Kings and others…
All this to say, when people start dropping disconnected verses, it feels like your taking snapshots of a much much larger story and doing injustice to the entire work… the good, the bad, the ugly… and there may be contradictions and inconsistancies – but as a whole… it’s a pretty freakin’ unbelievable amazing book/meta story about God, people, and eventually Jesus and the Kingdom of God.
Seriously, I wish I had more time to expand on this… but it’s 11pm and I’m coughing up my lung and need to go to bed. Have pity on my 27 year old butt… I’m older than it sounds. ^_^
Dustin, I look forward to continuing this conversation online, and offline in the future. I will NEVER give up on you if you promise not to give up on me… no matter what sort of shit comes out of my mouth or shows up on my blog. Deep down I desire more than anything to see the Dream of God (the Kingdom of God) here on earth, here in Portland, here in my home… and I want to follow Jesus. Because Judgment and all that… what happens after we die… what happens to evil people… it really all does not matter. Following Jesus into the leper collonies (something I am trying to get better at, but still failing pretty miserably) and touching the untouchable… loving the unlovable… forgiving the unforgiveable… I want that. I want to see Jesus and the Holy Spirit alive in Portland, alive in Evergreen, alive in EVERYONE. I think we have a lot of selfish bones in our bodies that need Jesus’ touch of life… to transform our minds and to renew our spirits, to bring sight to the blind and healing to the lame, to set the prisoners free and announce the day of the Lord’s favor.
See… now I’m preaching.
Hey Jim,
Haven’t had time to respond yet, but thought I would give a few quick thoughts to these passages. So here ya go!
I Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Exactly, just as those IN Adam die (as our representative or symbol of the human race as Rom. 5 says) those IN Christ shall be made alive. How many of those in Christ? All of them. The “all” is not made without qualification. But those who belong to Adam (which is everyone by heritage) will die, and those that belong to Christ, will live. So actually, I think this passage would make a strong case against universalism.
Colossians 1:20
For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
The context of this is setting right the disrupted order of the universe, bringing all things into subjection to God, not a restored fellowship.
Romans 5:18
Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Yes, one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. No doubt, he offers that life to everyone, without exception. Will all men take part of that life? Nope, he admits that they will not and says that “many” will be made righteous.
Romans 11:32
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
God has certainly show mercy to all, but providing his Son as an atonement and extending the offer of salvation to all. Interestingly however, in this context Paul is talking about Israel’s rejection of God and the subsequent offer of salvation to (all) the Gentiles. God’s mercy has been shown to all humans, but only those who will accept it, experience or profit from it. Paul even points out that some have rejected it (vs. 7-10; 21-22). Salvation is universally available, it is not universal.
Out of all of these passages, I think the Rom. 5:18 and 1 Cor. 5:22 are the most difficult passages, or rather, I believe, the only ones that are semi-compelling in the universalists’ favor. The difficulty is in the parallel between the universal effect of Adam’s sin and Christ’s saving work. In the context of these passages however, there are elements that serve to qualify the universal dimension as it applies to Christ’s work. In the case of Romans 5, verse 17 specifies that “those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.” Further, the use of the word “many” rather than all in verses 15 and 19. Paul restricts the meaning of “all” in 1 Cor. 15:22, for in the next verses he adds: “But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.” Why wouldn’t he have said EVERYONE? We have to conclude that the benefits of Christ’s death are received by all who are in Christ, just as the penalty for Adam’s sin is incurred by all who are in Adam.”
Also, is there another link to that paper? Link seems to be down.
I won’t respond much about the Marcus Borg thing. I’ve read the book he co-authored with N.T. Wright, as well as another book he wrote called “Meeting Jesus Again for the First time.” I’ve got to say that I’m not all that impressed with his scholarship and I think you would not be either if you read the counter-arguments by Ben Witherington and Richard Bauckham.
“Get in on the action”? Awesome!
I often feel the pull of universalism. It would be wonderful to think that NO ONE would be lost!
Unfortunately, that would mean God invalidating the choices and will of many- something He doesn’t seem willing to do either before or after death.
Yes- in Christ all will be made alive (I’m reading it slightly differently than Dustin, tho I appreciate his take too). But resurrected to what? Jesus put it this way-
” John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
25 “And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. 26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man. 28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. “
Dustin,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I know you’re probably spread thin with the baby and trying to establish a schedule for getting work done and spending time with family. I totally respect that and appreciate the conversation.
Reading your response I was struck by two things:
1. I think we’re reading the same two verses through two very different lens. What it feels like is that I think/believe one thing (that all are saved) and that’s what I see/read when I look at those verses, and yet I can totally agree with your logic, or at least see how you could it read it the way you do.
This is what I love about scripture… that it leaves room for seeking. Through brilliant writing and years of translation/interpretation, there is room for God’s Spirit to float just above the scripture and speak through it… some see this as flaw (and point to contradictions in the bible)… I see it as a part of Jesus’ message that seeking is finding, and meaning is found in the wrestling.
But I feel like this also means we have to hold loosely to our convictions and beliefs… because, well, we could be wrong. A change in belief / understanding over time, for me, does not signal a problem or a wishy-washy faith… it just means that God is transforming our minds, and we are no longer conforming to the patterns of this world… right?
Which brings me to my second point…
2. I’m not going to make a broad statement about you, because I am still getting to know you… but I will mention something that worried me in your last response. It felt like, with your final paragraph of your last response, that your mind has been made up on these matters and there is no way you can be convinced otherwise.
“I won’t respond much about the Marcus Borg thing. I’ve read the book he co-authored with N.T. Wright[...] I’m not all that impressed with his scholarship and I think you would not be either if you read…”
What it sounds like to me is “I’ve already researched this and studied way more than you and if you just read so and so you’ll see it the way I do. Now, I don’t think that’s how you were trying to come across… but man it sure sounded like that. I would love to say I am nearly as educated in scripture and christian commentary and… well.. theology… as you are, but I’m not. Does that make my perspectives / ideas / beliefs invalid?
That’s a serious question. Does the amount of scholarship / reading and studying of the bible equal the validity of claims people make? And will people with less education / reading of the bible always be wrong, in your eyes, about their interpretation/reading of scripture? Because… that’s what I got from your last paragraph.
Bob,
That verse in John definitely gives merit to the post-mortem conversion beliefs… that even after death people will be given a chance at salvation.
The thing with this verse, and all verses in the book of John… is… well… the book of John.
Obviously this is the greatly abbreviated version of something I want to blog on in the future, but it is hard for me to believe that much of the theology that flows out of the book of John in red text (from the mouth of Jesus) actually came from the mouth of Jesus, and is instead, an interpretation by John after thinking for many many years about the life and teachings of Jesus, and it can not be taken with the same merit as, say, the death and Resurrection of Christ, which is found in all four gospels.
I haven’t read enough on the Jesus Seminar to make a final judgment on them and what they believe… but I think there is some validity to biblical criticism and the fact that some things in the gospel probably are more likely to have happened / been said than others. But it is something I would love to study more about…
Dustin,
That link to that paper must have changed… here it is: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm
“1. I think we’re reading the same two verses through two very different lens. What it feels like is that I think/believe one thing (that all are saved) and that’s what I see/read when I look at those verses, and yet I can totally agree with your logic, or at least see how you could it read it the way you do.”
Here are the options with this one Jim.
A. You read it as everyone is saved and then in essence you have the Bible saying, “Everyone is saved and some are not saved.” Two very apparent contradictory claims.
B. You read it as everyone is saved and then try to discount the hundreds of times the Bible speaks of those who will not be saved and find a way to prioritize the two verses that you think hint at universal salvation to be the ultimate authority.
C. Or you read it as “everyone in Christ is saved and some are not saved.” (which grammatically and contextually makes the most sense in every one of those passages.) There’s really not much tension here. The only tension is that God desires everyone to be saved, He loves everyone, but sadly some will not choose him.
I honestly think there are legitimate tensions in scripture that some would call “contradictions” and I don’t feel the need to have to resolve all of those. But I honestly don’t see the rub here. It seems like it resolves itself fairly easily. And I agree that there is meaning to be found in the wrestling, no doubt about it. There are things we will be grappling with forever and that grappling is a very healthy thing.
“But I feel like this also means we have to hold loosely to our convictions and beliefs… because, well, we could be wrong. A change in belief / understanding over time, for me, does not signal a problem or a wishy-washy faith… it just means that God is transforming our minds, and we are no longer conforming to the patterns of this world… right?”
I agree that there are definitely things that either of us could be wrong about. And I feel like I hold several things loosely. “I don’t know” can be a great theological answer and I use it often. But there are some beliefs that I hold closer and with more conviction than others, things of which I wouldn’t say, “I could be wrong.” Let’s take the resurrection of Jesus. When you look at 1 Cor. 15, Paul didn’t just say, “well, I think the resurrection happened, but I could be wrong.” No, in fact, he said in essence, about this, “I CAN’T be wrong.” So there are differing levels of what is important and what is not so important. And with those things I will say, “I think”, or “where I’m at right now,” or “it appears that”, etc. And that’s great!
I can definitely see how my beliefs and thought has changed in the past ten years. I have had to rethink and wrestle with almost everything after coming out of a Christian Church/Restoration Movement background and then spending three years at a Reformed/Conservative Seminary. But that’s why I choose to go there, because I knew it was be an incredible challenge and I’d be forced to rethink what comes easily for me to believe.
“2. I’m not going to make a broad statement about you, because I am still getting to know you… but I will mention something that worried me in your last response. It felt like, with your final paragraph of your last response, that your mind has been made up on these matters and there is no way you can be convinced otherwise.”
On this matter, I feel like I’ve come to a reasonable conclusion based on my study of Scripture. I am happy to read other things, and I do! I read books that I know will challenge my beliefs on things that I’ve come to conclusions on. And honestly, I would gladly entertain universal salvation if I heard a good argument for it. But even in doing research on the idea, I simply haven’t found anything that is compelling.
“What it sounds like to me is “I’ve already researched this and studied way more than you and if you just read so and so you’ll see it the way I do. Now, I don’t think that’s how you were trying to come across… but man it sure sounded like that. I would love to say I am nearly as educated in scripture and christian commentary and… well.. theology… as you are, but I’m not. Does that make my perspectives / ideas / beliefs invalid?”
I’m sorry if I came off this way, it certainly wasn’t my intention and I can definitely see how it would sound like that. This is one of the disadvantages of written responses, no way to read tone or inference. What I am recommending is that you have a good balance in your reading. It’s something that I challenge myself to do. I don’t want to read just things that I will already agree with but have a wide range of stuff. I apologize for inferring that you don’t do that, because I obviously wouldn’t know. Maybe you have. I simply want to suggest as you think through biblical criticism that you read a balanced number of things from a variety of perspectives. That’s all!
Quite honestly, I’m not saying this because I know everything, or I’ve studied everything, but I am quite familiar with the Jesus Seminar and the method they have used in “deciding” what they think Jesus “would have said” and “would not have said” (by the casting of colored marbles) and I think it’s flawed to the core mainly due to its utmost devotion to the modernistic worldview. But I’m not saying to not study it for yourself. Go nuts! But just make sure you’re reading both sides of the argument. I love Prov. 18:17 which says: “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.” This is a Proverb I never forget because anytime I read an argument for whatever I think, “Wow, that sounds pretty good” until I read someones critique of it and then realize, “Oh, that wasn’t as good as I initially thought.” Happens all the time. But my fear is when people only take the time to read what they already think they agree with. Does that make sense? I’m not saying that you do that, but I would caution you against it.
[And as far as the gospel of John goes, I would highly recommend Richard Bauckham’s book “Testimony of the Beloved Disciple” or “Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”. Both make a very compelling case for the authenticity of John and the historicity of the other gospels so it would be a good balance to Spong, Ehrman, or Borg.]
“That’s a serious question. Does the amount of scholarship / reading and studying of the bible equal the validity of claims people make? And will people with less education / reading of the bible always be wrong, in your eyes, about their interpretation/reading of scripture? Because… that’s what I got from your last paragraph.”
Definitely not! Obviously you’ve got brilliant scholars on both side of every debate making opposite points! So I definitely don’t think scholarship equals validity, but I am quick to give a listen to people who have spent decades studying the scriptures (on both sides) and trying to draw a conclusion from there. And personally, I can see where some of my beliefs have changed through the process of education and reading and studying, so I think it’s a valuable thing. And I know that over the next decade in the process of reading and studying I will realize where I have missed it on certain things and will change. Even through both series that I’ve preached at Evergreen, 1 Corinthians and most of John, in the process of studying for Sunday, I’ve made discoveries I’ve never seen before and have had to adjust and change what I previously thought about at least three or four things (probably more)!
Okay- From Luke 13 then…
“Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”
He replied, 24 “Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail. 25 When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 Then you will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.’
28 “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out. 29 And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God. 30 And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then.”
Seems like Jesus Himself puts the kibosh on the idea of post-mortem conversion.
I like CS Lewis’ take on it in The Great DIvorce, a book that was immensely helpful for me in thinking thru this- and in seeing how even if God did offer a chance after death, most of us wouldn’t want it, because of what we would have to give up (our centeredness on ourselves)
Dustin and Bob,
Thank you for your responses.
Dustin, I agree with a lot of what you said about studying diverse opinions and positions and not just one perspective… I try to do that, but I'd admit to being guilty to only really wanting to read what I agree with most of the time.
You make some good points… and I am well aware that the bible says a bunch of stuff about judgment – and I know this isn't very scholarly – but when it comes down to it… when I look at Jesus' life as a whole, his givingness, acceptance, forgiveness, and his death and ressurrection, and I look at the hope that exists in the gospels for all men to be saved… I think that a lot of the exclusive view points/statements that are made in the new testament, were added at a later time and was not what Jesus intended or taught – but is a result of deeply ingrained jewish beliefs and traditions / human's need for justice/revenge, and human flaw that is transposed onto Jesus and his message of grace and forgiveness. Maybe this is a total heretical statement to make because it goes against a grip of scripture – but in the end I wonder… so what if I believe this? Does it really change anything? I've been there in the "God will judge the wicked" camp, and I'm not sure I was a better person, a better member of the Kingdom of God. In fact, I think, for me, believing that all are saved helps me see all people exactly equal, and it's easier to love them the way Jesus/God must. I can't explain it, and I'm sorry I'm not much of a fighter when it comes to theological arguments (I'm a lover not a fighter)… but in the end, all will be revealed, and I'm just not sure it matters whether I believe some will be judged or some will not. I will still tell people about Jesus because I think there is wisdom in his words, there is love in his actions, and there is a better way of life in his Kingdom… and I want others to know and share in that.
Anyway… thanks for the thoughts on this. I really do appreciate it… and Dustin and Bob, all your verses and examples and scholars are food for thought and I will consider reading some of them… but at this point in my life, most of my time and energy is spent on my family… and the rest on our community…and the rest on our town and the least of these. This may be the wrong thing… but it's a decision I've made… to focus on people first, and in-so-doing focus on God and his love. There are too many things I will never understand/comprehend about God and his mysteries… BUT, with all that said… I appreciate your time and energy in responding, in teaching and preaching, and helping the rest of us take time to consider theology… so that we don't go off and drink the koolade.
Love you guys…
Thanks Jim- We love you too
And I'm glad your heart is for your family and for others!
I just want to make clear I don't see a contradiction between talking about the possibility of missing out on what Jesus is offering and *love*.
if there IS a possibility of missing it as Jesus seems to warn us ("The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it."- Matt 7:13-14) the single most loving thing we could ever do is be honest about that- and have within us the same sense of urgency Jesus did.
I suppose, Bob.
It just seems if Jesus' main reason for coming to Earth was to tell people how to be saved (by believing in him, or being "in him" – whatever that means) then that's all he would have done is gone around telling people "without me you are going to hell." Why not make it clear? But it's not clear. In fact, in the book of Mark – probably the first Gospel written after Jesus' life (according to biblical scholars), we don't see Jesus preaching a lot… in fact, most of the time he's healing or performing miracles. There is not a lot of theology, or teaching on judgment for that matter, and to me – that signals that this was not a big part of Jesus' ministry… but being with people, healing them, restoring them, was. Showing them a different way of living (through loving the unlovable, touching the untouchable, bringing back into the circle of life those who had been cast out). It seems like the further you get away (timewise) from Jesus' death, the more is added about Jesus preaching about judgment.
That's the way I see it… from what I've learned thus far in my life… I admit, I am no scholar. I could be very wrong… but at this point in my life, for what I do know, for what I have studied, this is what I think…
Except for Mark 3,4,8,9, & 12 Jesus doesn’t talk about hell or judgement anywhere.
I think the reason Jesus healed and performed miracles instead of preaching about judgment is because he knew what mode of communication would work best. Perhaps Jesus knew that people would still question his credibility if he only "talked" about his authority, but by demonstrating his authority (re: miracles) only those that will ultimately reject him would still question his authority.
People will choose to follow the authority of Jesus once they experience his power. That's happening right now around the world. Someone is being healed or a demon is being cast out by the authority of Jesus and that person can't do anything other than to follow. Whereas in the U.S. it seems like we tend to call out people's sin and insist that they lead a life of righteousness before they ever experience the power of God. This seems backwards to me.
Obviously, this is speculation on my part, but I think an argument could be made that Jesus was the best communicator of all time and that he knew his audience. I think the lesson here is whether or not we imitate how Jesus' communicated. Preaching fire and brimstone is not going to bring many people to Christ in our current culture, but I think there is value in communicating the sense of urgency as was stated earlier.
After all Jesus declared the fulfillment of scripture in Luke 4:18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." I think of how many people are missing out on the freedom that Jesus brings to us right now. We need not wait till heaven. The kingdom of God is at hand. It is now! And people are missing out at this very moment.
wow… i just got around to reading this in my google reader and a lot went on. Hmmm… i like reading this. I wish i had more time to read through the comments. Jim it is good to hear your process man. Really good. hope things are well for you in the city of roses.
To whom it may concern;
I read all the posts on “Atonement (look it up)” and I’d like to share what I have come to know. I want to make it clearly known that I am in no way nor ever have been a ‘deep thinker’. If anyone had met me through-out my life they would say I was probably the shallowest person they had met.
After reading these posts I am led to share with you all, what is now coming from the Bible in these ‘last days’. I say ‘last days’ with a great emphasis on what the Bible says would come in the ‘last days’.
There has been information (mysteries) in the Bible that has been impossible to know or understand (by anyone) until the last days were upon us. Here are some of the verses that point to this:
“For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.” (Habakkuk 2:3)
“And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:9)
“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)
“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.” (Isaiah 42:9)
Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. (Dan 10:14 )
Even though we (in our pride) like to think we can figure out what God means. It is very clear now that we do not make sense of Scripture because we are smart. It is God who grants understanding:
“Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures” (Luke 24:45)
“Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.” (2 Timothy 2:7)
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” (Job 32:8)
“Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.” (1 Chronicles 22:12)
Therefore, it is God who controls the timetable of truth being revealed.
We must understand the magnitude of this fact. We can’t just gloss over the verses and ignore that God was saying He would intentionally keep mankind from understanding certain information until right near the end. If God says He is going to hide something we better not think we are somehow clever enough to figure it all out before God allows it. This means we must accept that at least some of what we have always believed may be wrong.
We are now living in a day, because we are right near the end, when God is removing the seals from the Bible so that Bible students everywhere are able to more accurately understand them. These are new truths that were once hidden:
“Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.” (Isaiah 48:6)
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2)
The kings in view here are the believers. They spiritually reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6). They are the royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).
I came aware that God had opened the Bible for these last days about 3 years ago, when I discovered that certain people have been claiming the complete timeline of Biblical history can accurately seen just from the Bible. So, I ordered this book ‘Adam When’ free from 800.543.1495, and study for about 3 months and I found that the dates of Biblical history were in the Bible, perfectly accurate. Scriptures were opened to me to see the links relating to time.
And then many scriptures starting opening to me to the understanding of time and judgment. (as scripture says)
“Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment.” (Ecclesiastes 8: 5)
The ‘wise’ are those who are ‘in Christ’, the true believers, will know time and judgment. By the Bible
God is teaching His children how to study the Bible in these last days (comparing spiritual with spiritual) and thereby are correcting many wrong understandings about His salvation plan and judgment plan for this world. These teachings are not taught with the fullness of understanding in any churches worldwide. I realize the magnitude of this last statement, but can only say this is what coming forth from the Bible.
The Bible speaks of the ‘milk of the word’ and this is basically what the churches have been teaching through the church, but in these last days the Bible speaks of the ‘meat of the word’. In this we are now understanding that Jesus always spoke in parables and without a parable ‘spake he not’.
“And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.” (Mark 4:33-34)
Jesus is the Lord of the New Testament and Lord of the Old Testament.
“Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old” (Psalm 78:1-2)
We are reminded of this principle in Matthew 13:35:
“That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.” (Matthew 13:35)
“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)
Now that the Bible has been opened, we can say without controversy, that Jesus is Eternal God, manifest in the flesh, is from everlasting to everlasting. The joy of having this knowledge and knowing it can only be coming from our Eternal God, by the proofs coming from the Bible, is beyond imagination.
There are great blessings for all those who are willing (able? With God’s direction) to patiently trust and study the Bible seeking wisdom and understanding from God alone.
I could not in this letter cover the mountain of information coming from the Bible, but wanted to just touch the tip if the iceberg in hopes that others will have a desire to search the Truth.
To assist in finding where the scriptures are, God in His mercy, has allowed His children to provide websites to declare His Wisdom and Glory. > http://www.The-Latter-Rain.com; http://www.EBiblefellowship.com; http://www.FamilyRadio.com; Bmius.org; WeCanKnow.com
Also these books explained by the scriptures God’s Wisdom:
“Time Has An End”; “The End of the Church Age and After”; “We Are Almost There” ; “To God Be The Glory”; “I Hope God Will Save Me”; by calling 800.543.1495 (order for free)
Also from the-latter-rain.com you can download “The Book Has Been Opened” & “Woe To The Bloody City”
May God’s Perfect Will Be Done.
And may God have mercy.
In Christ’s service,
Roger
I accepted that last comment because it looked authentic, and it was obvious that the guy spent a lot of time on it. I did NOT read it all, nor do I care to spend my time reading it all. I could tell from the first few sentences that it was not worth reading, at least right now. There you go… comment on it if you want.